Exclusive Conversation with Ryan and Jessica: El Salvador Flourishes and the Values of Bitcoin in the Bible – Part 2

von Gregor Peters | 31. Dez 2023

In the first part of our conversation, we talked a lot about Ryan and Jessica’s dog, and it almost seemed to me as if the dog had adopted Jessica and Ryan, rather than the other way around. Here is another photo of him – after which we will continue directly with our conversation.

Gregor, LegitimCrypto: In one of your videos, you mentioned that you get paid directly in Bitcoin. How should we envision this? Is the corresponding dollar amount converted and then sent to your wallet? And if so, is the transfer done via the Lightning Network or on-chain?

Ryan, Two People in Paradise: We accept payment only in Bitcoin. This has been an easy standard to maintain thanks in large part to Bitwage. Bitwage is a service that will accept fiat payments from employers and clients and send Bitcoin to your wallet (on-chain), enabling us to bypass fiat bank accounts and traditional exchanges. They have been a huge help, and we recommend them to anyone looking to get off the fiat trainwreck.

Our primary client, which is a medium-sized company, has since been orange-pilled. They now have their own Bitcoin node, and are equipped to pay their employees and contractors over Lightning. Their leadership has also become as enamored with El Salvador as we have, and is actively expanding their business here.

Preparing for the Bitcoin Beach podcast

Gregor, LegitimCrypto: Surveillance is increasing, and Bitcoin transactions are being more closely monitored in many countries. Do you have to cash out the Bitcoin to a government wallet – if there is such a thing – so the state can monitor the transactions, or can you transfer them to any wallet of your choosing?

Ryan, Two People in Paradise: A government wallet does exist here. It’s called Chivo wallet. Chivo is capable of doing on-chain and Lightning transactions, but it largely operates on its own internal ledger, which we can safely assume is surveilled by the Salvadoran government given this nation’s recent history with drug and human trafficking. Chivo wallet is only available to Salvadoran citizens, and so we won’t be eligible to use it until we qualify for citizenship about four years from now.

Chivo also has ATMs dotted around the country, which anyone can use via on-chain transactions (Lightning is being rolled out on these soon). To use the Chivo ATM, you need a Salvadoran phone number. If you’re a foreigner, getting a Salvadoran SIM involves presenting your passport to a cell service provider, and so withdrawing cash from a Chivo ATM also involves KYC, albeit somewhat indirectly.

There are also private Bitcoin ATMs here, such as those operated by Athena, which can work with any international phone number.

The government has not taken any steps to prevent people from using KYC-free, non-custodial solutions. Any Chivo user can transfer their Bitcoin to a non-custodial wallet at any time. In fact, the government has recently integrated Mi Primer Bitcoin’s Bitcoin Diploma curriculum into the public school system. A core emphasis of the program is the importance of privacy, self-sovereignty, and how to achieve both.

Our impression is that the Salvadoran government is doing what it must do to give as little ammunition as possible to the world’s high-powered critics with respect to its implementation of Bitcoin as legal tender, while at the same time being quite deliberate about keeping the pathway to self-sovereignty clear and unobstructed.

One of our first grocery purchases in El Salvador, from a local vendor

Gregor, LegitimCrypto: In Germany, Austria, and Switzerland, Bitcoin plays hardly any role in daily life, maybe a bit more in Switzerland, particularly in Lugano. I think many can’t imagine the advantage it can offer, like paying for coffee or anything else directly from their smartphone via Lightning, without a bank as an intermediary. Why do people in El Salvador who also have a bank account accept Bitcoin? What are your impressions?

Ryan, Two People in Paradise: If we’re being honest, the same is true here in El Salvador. Bitcoin Adoption in El Salvador is somewhere between 5% and 20%, depending on which statistics you believe. For the majority of Salvadoran people, Bitcoin does not play a role in their daily life, and indeed many don’t yet perceive the advantages it offers.

With that said, it was the same way when credit cards first came out in America. For quite a while before they became ubiquitous, very few people saw any advantage to using credit cards. Indeed, credit card companies essentially had to bribe people to start using them, offering gimmicks like cash-back and reward points.

We’re old enough to remember people saying of credit cards „I’m just not comfortable using money I can’t physically see.“ With the exception of some communities where Bitcoin adoption is much higher, such as El Zonte, Berlin, and Suchitoto, we are hearing identical sentiments spoken of Bitcoin here in El Salvador today.

The difference between El Salvador and other parts of the world is that in El Salvador there are no legal or practical obstructions to using Bitcoin. Nobody is standing in the way. While other governments are actively discouraging Bitcoin adoption, El Salvador is actively encouraging it. Because of this, it is possible to live your entire life in El Salvador on a Bitcoin standard, using USD rarely if ever. This involves being selective about where you shop, who you rent from, and it includes talking with merchants about accepting Bitcoin and teaching them how to use it. So it entails some extra legwork — but it is possible here in a way that just isn’t anywhere else.

As for the Salvadoran people, it’s safe to say that the majority aren’t dedicating much thought to things like fractional reserve banking, central bank money printing, and other such broad philosophical issues. Thanks in large part to the consequences of the previous era, 70% of the population does not have a bank account, and the vast majority of those are squarely focused on just getting by day to day. They spend in the evening what they earned in the morning and afternoon, and saving is perceived as a privilege reserved for the monied class. To this demographic, Bitcoin is even further afield than a savings account, even though the opposite is true in that Bitcoin is the perfect tool for their economic empowerment.

That’s a tough nut to crack. We’re talking about decades of conditioned experience here, spanning generations. It won’t change overnight. But, with the path clear, and with prosperity coming to the nation, we are confident it will change in time.

Local friends – these two own a Tienda that we frequent because they accept Bitcoin.

Gregor, LegitimCrypto: Your videos very effectively convey the transformative power of Bitcoin. How has Bitcoin and engaging with it changed your mindsets?

Ryan, Two People in Paradise: This is a vast question! We’ll try to answer it as briefly as possible.

Canada is a country where, on a deep cultural level, authority is accepted as truth. Even among self-described skeptics and contrarians, something isn’t true until an authority declares it true, whether that’s the media, an academic, or a government official. This habit is deeply rooted in the Canadian psyche, and having grown up in that environment, we were conditioned to trust the authorities as much as everyone else, and largely, we did.

The foundational premise of the Bitcoin network is the inverse. In the Bitcoin network, truth is the authority. Verification is its central operating principle. When you start using Bitcoin, this principle begins to seep into your consciousness. It changes the way you look at things. You start questioning things, seeking verification for some of your basic assumptions. When some of those assumptions are proven false, it leads to seismic shifts not only in your understanding of the world but in understanding yourself as well.

This, in turn, reorients your priorities and changes your behavior. You start aligning your decisions and your conduct around objective truth, and as the scripture says — the truth shall set you free (John 8:31-32).

This probably explains why so many Bitcoiners seem to confer religious or spiritual overtones onto the technology. We aren’t of that persuasion ourselves, but we certainly understand why many people are. After all, the book of Proverbs touches on some of the very issues Bitcoin addresses: “Diverse weights and diverse measures, they are both alike, an abomination to the Lord” (Proverbs 20:10) speaks to the Biblical opinion of fiat, and “Honest scales and balances belong to the Lord; all the weights in the bag are of his making” (Proverbs 16:11) reflects the Biblical opinion on Bitcoin. (Shout out to @PastorCoin for putting us on to that).

Gregor, LegitimCrypto: Very interesting! Can you explain a bit more about the two Bible verses? I think this is a very new perspective on Bitcoin for many people.

Ryan, Two People in Paradise: Certainly it is. We were also surprised to discover such a clear Biblical stance on currency when we found it in Alin Armstrong’s book, „The Bible and Bitcoin“ (cf. Amazon).

Both verses are illuminating, and are highly relevant to today’s world. Proverbs 20:10 talks about „unequal weights and measures.“ To interpret this in modern terms, we need to first think about what money is.

Consider: if I spend ten hours making a table, and my carpentry skill is valued in the market at $20 per hour, the value of the time and energy I put into the table is $200. I can sell the table at that price, and then exchange it for the time and energy someone else put in to growing and raising food, for example.

In this simplified illustration, money is a unit of measure representing the value, or „weight“ of the effort put into making a table, or into growing food, manufacturing widgets, and so on and so forth. It’s a means of accounting for and fairly exchanging the rarest and most precious commodity of all: our own individual human time and energy.

In the Biblical era, dishonest people would use mislabelled physical weights and rigged scales as a primitive form of fraud. They would use these items to underestimate the value of goods produced, paying fewer units of currency for the goods than what fairly represents their worth. In this way, fraudsters would steal the time and energy of productive people.

It’s this which Proverbs 20:10 calls „an abomination to the Lord.“ But why? Why does God care about petty fraud in some dusty market? Well, He created us. We are His children. Our lives, which is to say the finite amount of time and energy our lives contain, are rare and precious things. When fraudsters devalue that, they are devaluing Creation.

It’s a fraud that is absolutely rampant today. Fiat currency, being without a supply limit, can be arbitrarily and rapidly debased by the people with their hands on its levers, silently plundering people of their time and energy.

Proverbs 16:11 describes „just“ balances and scales as „The Lord’s.“ We can interpret this as meaning that they account for the precious rarity of our human life accurately and fairly, in the manner God intends for us.

Bitcoin is such a technology, insofar as it has a supply limit and cannot thereby be inflated, nor can its monetary policy by altered by corruptible human beings with their own ambitions. Further, no one can confiscate your Bitcoin without your private keys: Bitcoin, as a representation of your human time and energy, belongs exclusively to you, to do with as you see fit.

Bitcoin is a form of money which enshrines the inherent value of the individual, and which ensures human beings can exchange the value generated over the course of their lives in a 1:1, value-for-value manner, free from arbitrary theft and systematic plunder.

Proverbs 16:11 goes on to say „all the weights in the bag are His work.“ Some Christian Bitcoiners interpret this as meaning Bitcoin is literally God’s creation, that it was breathed into the world by divine providence. Us, we take a more reserved view, that Bitcoin is a brilliant but nevertheless mundane human creation which succeeds admirably at modelling the „weights and balances“ God intended for humanity.

These two verses might help explain why many Christians are attracted to Bitcoin. Whether intentional or otherwise, Bitcoin is apparently built upon and powerfully upholds Christian values.

More interesting than that, in my view, is the manner in which Bitcoin attracts people to Christianity. Most of us get into Bitcoin looking to expand our fiat position, or in our case to protect our savings from monetary debasement. But once a Bitcoiner starts to grasp the deeper philosophical underpinnings of the technology, transformations in their worldview, in their estimation of their own human worth, and the importance of their own sovereign individuality, start to manifest in their hearts.

They start to realize the absolutely unique and rightly beloved nature of their own existence. Indeed, God gave his one and only Son to die for us for the sake of conserving exactly that, and so absorbing the values and principles upheld by Bitcoin naturally connects us with those upheld by God and His Son.

Gregor, LegitimCrypto: Thank you for this explanation. I must admit that I myself have not looked at Bitcoin in this way before. I would like to stay a bit longer on the changes that Bitcoin causes. What changes can you all see in society, or in local communities? Or were people like this before and just found each other through Bitcoin?

Ryan, Two People in Paradise: The biggest and most obvious change has to do with the improved security conditions. Prior to this new era, the people of El Salvador lived in what was, in effect, an open-air prison controlled by the gangs. People were not able to travel between departments, towns, or even neighborhoods without permission, and the fruits of their labor were heavily extorted under threat of extreme violence.

We heard from locals that Salvadorans were paying anywhere between 25% to 50% of their annual after-tax income to the gangs. If someone stood up to the gangs and refused to pay, or simply could not afford to pay, they invited a brutal and very public death to themselves, their families, and friends.

Due to this, individuals and businesses simply could not prosper. Communities stood in disrepair, families lived in poverty, and entire generations oriented all of their energy toward escaping to the United States or Canada.

Everyone has a tragic story about the previous era. Not one life is untouched. We have heard things that would chill you to the bone, crimes which are so unspeakable that we cannot repeat them here.

The evidence of that previous era still abounds. Homes are surrounded with high concrete walls topped with razor wire, and if razor wire was unaffordable they’d plaster broken glass up there instead.

Over the past year and a half, we’ve watched as this dense atmosphere of fear has begun fading into the past. Razor wire which has fallen down is not put back up. When sections of wall are replaced, the broken glass is left out. Out in the communities, people are out working, socializing, smiling and joking with each other. Children play games in the parks, and families ride bikes together at sunset.

There remains a long road ahead. Decades of violence, tragedy, and immiseration don’t heal overnight. But there is an optimism in the air, a sense of the future, and a renewed national pride.

Of the people who’ve come to El Salvador to live on a Bitcoin standard, many have fallen in love with the country and its people, and have dedicated their time and energy toward their shared goal of building a free and prosperous country. Whether it’s realized or not, Bitcoin is an integral part of that project, and we’ve witnessed that realization take hold in pockets throughout the country.

A notable example is Berlin, Usulutan. In Berlin, Bitcoin adoption is absolutely exploding (cf. Legitim Crypto – video at the end of the article.), and the local people are excited about it. Thanks to the leadership of Gerardo Linares & Evelyn Lemus, the liberating power of Bitcoin is becoming known. People are earning, spending, and saving in Bitcoin like nowhere else in the country, and it is enabling the people of Berlin to take special pride in their city, which in turn motivates them to protect and enhance its beauty.

Gregor, LegitimCrypto: Are there many expats who came to El Salvador because of Bitcoin?

Jessica, Two People in Paradise: Many people have relocated to El Salvador because of Bitcoin, yet a considerable number have also come for the liberty the country offers. As freedom diminishes in many nations, El Salvador becomes a haven for those seeking greater freedoms, attracting people who feel they’ve lost these liberties elsewhere.

Bitcoin in and of itself is probably the best form of freedom one can experience. As it operates on a decentralized network that is not controlled by any central authority like the government or central bank and it gives control back to individuals like us or yourself. What could be more empowering and uplifting than that when it comes to the notion of freedom?

Ryan, Two People in Paradise: There are quite a few, yes, and they’re coming from all over the world. By far the largest influx is from Canada, but we are also seeing a lot of people from The Netherlands, Australia, and New Zealand. British folks are coming too, a handful of Americans, as well as Israelis.

Far and away, though, it’s Salvadorans themselves who are returning home. I’d estimate that for every foreigner coming to El Salvador, there are ten Salvadorans reuniting with their families in their homeland.

Gregor, LegitimCrypto: The country is said to have become very safe. Can you confirm this?

Jessica, Two People in Paradise: El Salvador has become the safest country in Latin America. It certainly is safer now than it has been in the past. Every country around the world has some level of petty crime but you don’t usually find that throughout much of the country. The longer we live here there seems to be less and less of that.

Ryan, Two People in Paradise: We routinely leave our motorcycle helmets on the bike unlocked. Last year we’d always keep them chained up, but now we don’t bother. There doesn’t seem to be a need.

Jessica, Two People in Paradise: Salvadorans have put up with so much crime and violence in the past and now that the country is finally safe the locals don’t put up with it the rare time it happens.

Ryan, Two People in Paradise: Locals don’t put up with crime, that’s right. Shortly after we arrived, there was an incident which cemented that in the national consciousness.

A man tried to rob a woman on public transit, to steal her purse. In the past, other passengers would say and do nothing to intervene, for fear of attracting reprisal against themselves. But this time, everyone on the bus intervened, simultaneously. They not only prevented the crime, they made the criminal instantly regret the attempt. He was sporting several prominent bruises by the time the police arrived to take him into custody.

When that appeared on the news, and started circulating on social media, it seemed to signal to the whole country that we’d not be going back to the way things were, not now and not ever.

Shortly after that, we got news from Canada that there had been a stabbing at a high school just a few minutes walk from where we used to live. There’s no doubt in my mind: we are safer here than we would be in Canada.

Jessica, Two People in Paradise: As expats we feel there is a sense of security not just for us but for the locals as well. Kids are able to go places and play soccer outside at night now. This wasn’t the case five years ago. People are able to create and develop businesses without fear of extortion and you can see that growth happening here.

It certainly is safer and more vibrant than what’s happening in our home country. They even have special laws in place here that protect the safety and wellbeing of animals!

Ryan, Two People in Paradise: El Salvador and Canada are on divergent trends as far as violent crime is concerned. In 2015, El Salvador was recording 18.24 homicides per day. Now in 2023, the number is 0.42, a 97.7% reduction. (cf. El Salvador INFOS)

During the same time period, violent crime has risen in Canada by 19%, and is currently rising at about 5% per year. (cf. Statistics Canada)

Closing out 2023, the homicide rate in Canada is 2.25 per 100,000, and 2.4 per 100,000 in El Salvador. Given the current trends in either country, it seems very likely that El Salvador will be safer than Canada by this time next year. Perhaps much safer.

Gregor, LegitimCrypto: That sounds like a very positive development in El Salvador. If someone from the Legitim-Community decides to check out El Salvador, what would you recommend?

Ryan, Two People in Paradise: Ultimately it depends on what you’re coming here to do. If you’re coming to visit, and are an adventurous person, I’d say to rent a motorcycle for the duration of your trip and just go exploring. Talk to people, see where it all leads. You’ll find the Bitcoiners in El Zonte, of course, and all along the coast between El Zonte and La Libertad. Out east you’ll find Berlin, a must-visit destination for Bitcoiners. Definitely don’t miss Berlin.

Panoramic shot of the „Bitcoin Day“ farmer’s market in El Zonte

On the eastern side of the country is a wonderful hotel, Hotel Martinez, owned by a repatriated Salvadoran entrepreneur, Jose Martinez. We highly recommend a visit, as the place is stunningly beautiful, and has easy access to an incredible beach with world-class surfing. Check out our video with Jose for a closer look.

If you’re here to explore a permanent move, you’ll want to set up a meeting with the folks at Porta Real Estate Boutique, as well as Mario at Escape to El Salvador to discuss your residency permit.

Jessica walking on the beach

Gregor, LegitimCrypto: Is it feasible to get by with only Bitcoin, or is it better to exchange Bitcoin for dollars?

Jessica, Two People in Paradise:

Absolutely! You can definitely live on a Bitcoin standard here in El Salvador. It’s the only way to grow the Bitcoin economy. There are places here that unfortunately don’t accept bitcoin (yet) but there are hardworking locals and expats who are working together to change that. Mi Primer Bitcoin is an educational group of people who go to the schools and hold classes for kids and adults and teach them not only how to use bitcoin but why using bitcoin is so important.

We prefer to pay with Bitcoin as much as possible. On the rare occasion when we do have to use fiat we usually use our DitoBanx card.

Teaching local school kids how to use Bitcoin on Lightning

Ryan, Two People in Paradise: DitoBanx has been a game-changer. Prior to the release of their Bitcoin MasterCard, we had to handle two currencies: Bitcoin and physical US dollars. Now, we are almost exclusively Bitcoin, only needing a few coins here and there to pay for odds and ends.

Here’s how it works: through their DitoWallet app, you can load your DitoBanx MasterCard, a prepaid card, via Lightning. You can use the card virtually over NFC, or you can use the physical card delivered to your house on request. It works anywhere MasterCard is accepted, including online. Albeit indirectly, we can now pay with Bitcoin just about anywhere and everywhere, regardless of whether or not the merchant accepts it.

We did a video about it on the channel recently!

Our first Bitcoin Beach meetup

Gregor, LegitimCrypto: As we slowly come to the end of our conversation: What do you wish from the readers, and what do you wish for them?

Jessica, Two People in Paradise: If you feel like you are in a situation where your freedom is being threatened, or you don’t like what’s going on where you are in life, we wish for you to be brave and to make the changes you need to get out. And there are people who can help (us included) so just reach out to us anytime and we will answer any questions you might have as to how to move forward. It’s not going to be easy but it will be worth it.

Ryan, Two People in Paradise: My sentiments are exactly the same. If you are in the same position we were in Canada, which is to say that the fruits of your labor don’t belong to you, nor does your conscience, or your bodily autonomy, and if you feel helpless to change those conditions, we want you to know that there is a thriving community here in El Salvador that is insisting upon the dignity of a sovereign life.

Here you’ll recapture not just your dignity, but your ability to make meaningful contributions to the betterment of the world around you. In El Salvador there are endless opportunities to add your time, talent, and skill toward a better future, and doors fly open for anyone who wants to do so. The inner rewards are boundless.

Some the scenery that’s now part of our regular lives

Gregor, LegitimCrypto: Jessica, Ryan – thank you for the conversation and the wealth of information and insights you’ve provided us. It’s good to feel how positive you are about the developments in El Salvador and how they’ve impacted you.

Contact options for Ryan and Jessica: